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  • Thread: Value of coins in Herns Hand Book - ZAR Coins (11 Posts)
  1. #1
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    Default Value of coins in Herns Hand Book - ZAR Coins

    Hi all,

    It will be interesting to know where the Herns Hand Book get the value for coins. It seldom get the prices in the book.
    Most of the times you get a lot less for a coin and sometime you gets much more for a coin worth much less.

    Also, why is the value of coins with a low mintage sometimes less than other with a higher mintage, if you understand what I mean.

    Eg. ZAR - Two Shillings - the 1892 - Two Shillings - mintage - 55 206 VF value - R2500.00
    1893 - Two Shillings - mintage - 106 951 VF value - R18000.00 etc.

    Is it because of a key date during the ZAR era?

    I once sold a 1945 - Two Shillings MS 63 for R6000.00 - book value was R800.00 for uncirculated - was not the lowest mintage at all ( not complaining about the sold price though). It was a fantactic coin.

    It would just be interesting to know how they work out the value.

    Regards
    Andrea

  2. #2
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    Hi Andrea

    I completely agree with you.

    In my view Hern's books are only good for reference purposes on mintage and identification of coins. The valuations are just way off. There are collectors on BoB who have a far better idea of a coin's worth. Hern's token book is equally bad with the values shown being completely misleading - I don't know where he gets them or how he arrives at them. More often than not I see tokens being placed on BoB with a reserve taken direct from Hern's book. Some go much higher but most never get a bid.

    Kind regards

    Scott Balson

  3. #3
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    The mintage figures for ZAR coins are misleading as it does not account for quantities melted. This is often true for other coins as well. As far as I know the records available for ZAR coins only give total quantity melted for a denomination. Therefore, one can only guess how much was destroyed for a certain year. For the example you give:

    ZAR - Two Shillings - the 1892 - Two Shillings - mintage - 55 206 VF value - R2500.00
    1893 - Two Shillings - mintage - 106 951 VF value - R18000.00 etc.

    it is most likely that more of the 1893 2 shillings were melted. So, after melting there may have been 10000 1893 2 Shillings and 40000 1892 2 Shillings left. But no one knows the exact figures. Over the years the 1893 year appeared to be scarcer and therefore it is valued higher in catalogues. I do agree that values in Hern's book are not always realistic.
    Last edited by xsiandreas; 11-12-10 at 17:05.

  4. #4
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    There is life outside Bob as well. Take a 1933 Half penny selling for over U$3000 A PL68 1953 crown for over R3000 and a Double 9 for R750 000(VF) Currnet listing of a 1959 Crown PF 66 over R3500.

    Brian watches auction prices which he gets from auction at Heratige, Spinks ans Six bid. The prices is also what he gets on his monthly auction. Stop complaining as he has done more for the hobby than any one else alive. We are all going to complain when we expect to sell a coin for more that book price and we dont get it, or if we want to buy it for less then book price and dont get it.

    Even worse, What happens if Brian says that is it and does not do a new book ever again. I dont see any other persons book being recogniced as world standard. Stop complaining and rather build up. And Yes we are in kind of a recesion. If things changed overnight and the economy gets better the priced realised will also increase.

    If you then brag about youre collection being worth millions, put back into coins what it has done for you.

    Money has dried up after 2007 and we cant expect to get those prices soon. But with the amount of VF an lower coins being melted it will get back to were it was and more. Everyone sitting in theire Ivory towers compalining about this and that just makes more people grumpy.

    You would not have been there if you did not have a refrence to coin and token prices......

    Enjoy Christmas
    People shouldn't wear purple , Barney gets upset.
    VIEW MY ITEMS!

  5. #5
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    Bravo Rarenotes.

    I think Hern's prices are calculated predictions. However with the great recession, everybody is now playing catch-up, whether it be collectables, property etc. I take my hat of to him and long may he continue.

    Enjoy Christmas

  6. #6
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    Thank You. But he desrves it much more
    People shouldn't wear purple , Barney gets upset.
    VIEW MY ITEMS!

  7. #7
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    I do not have the 2010 edition. But from what I can see, the "Greater Recession" has not really hit SA coins and never did, except briefly in early 2009.

    It is true that coins graded below uncirculated sell for much less than the catalog values that I have seen, But its not because they have lost value. It is because they were never worth the listed values to start. I have bought AU and some XF coins from the scarcer issues for a miniscule fraction of the listed prices. I have no idea who would pay the catalog prices or why, though I still see these as "ask" prices on dealer websites in SA. I certainly will never pay them.

  8. #8
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    Consider the following graph which plots the catalogue values stated in the years shown on the x-axis for a 1930 sixpence in uncirculated condition (blue line). The green line plots the initial value stated for 1969 if such value were to appreciate at an annual percentage equal to the inflation rate for each of the subsequent years up to the present. The red line plots each of the stated catalogue values for each of the stated years in real terms i.e. the equivalent value present terms. To a trained eye such a graph would certainly lead to thoughts of a great big walloping as opposed to accolades for catalogue work done overthe last 30 or so years!!
    This is but one of over 100 such examples for different years and denominations. All of which will be available soon on our website.



    Cheers
    Alex
    When in doubt knock 'em out!!

  9. #9
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    Default Lets think outside the "BOX" (book)

    What if Herns or Krause or Pick or any other book ,is published with only Unc and Proof prices?
    Will that stop people from buying vf and complaining about the price?
    Will that make a collection less or more valuble?
    Will more vf and ef coins being melted increase Unc and Proof prices?
    Why did BOB change their top 10 criteria?
    Will bob sales increase in value or decrease?
    Will there be less sellers or more?
    What will happen with the silver rice?
    Will graded prices increase or decrease on coins?
    Will there be less items for sale?

    10 question I would like help with.

    Just a few qeustions going on in my mind. Please help before I go crazy!
    Comments will be appreciated
    .

    Regards Morne
    People shouldn't wear purple , Barney gets upset.
    VIEW MY ITEMS!

  10. #10
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    Default In the days of the Internet a coin catalogue book is outdated technology

    Hi Morne

    In my view the problem with Hern's coin books is twofold:

    FIRST: Publishing a book cataloguing coin prices is outdated technology

    If you look at the impact of the Internet on our hobby today you realise that three things have happened, all good:
    1) The Internet has allowed a growing number of buyers and sellers from all over the world to participate in coin auctions (like BoB). Pre-Internet auction sales were dominated by auction houses like Spink etc or localised (like being at a coin club meeting)...
    2) Coin sales are now happening every minute of every day, coins being bought and sold. The entire market has changed from the turn of the century. In the 1900s there were just a few key auctions and smaller ones at coin clubs.
    3) Our knowledge about our hobby, whether it be an obscure token coin, business strikes or values has expanded exponentially. These sort of discussions can be facilitated and specialist knowledge recorded on web pages - but to do so in a book would be very expensive - and, once again, nearly always out of date. Today's coin collector wants more information and wants it now.

    My own website early South African coins has had many millions of visits over 15 years. It represents thousands of hours of research and content and reflects the love I have for my hobby. This information I have always provide freely and without restriction. There are hundreds of web pages and thousands of images covering coins, books, documents, maps and even artifacts - all historically relevant and it is updated weekly. You can't do that in a printed book. I am aware of many collectors who now collect South African coins thanks to my website. One of these days I will be selling this website resource through an online auction house and whoever buys it (with the domain name) will get a bargain when one considers the hours that have gone into developing it.

    In comparison, a printed coin catalogue book is not only out of date before it is even published but it is restricted by its very nature when it comes to content. As an author I am aware of the delays involved in going from preparation, proofing, drafts to publication. This process takes months and once printed you cannot magically revise what is on the printed page. The speed of being outdated is exacerbated by the fluid coin market the Internet has allowed to develop. This is great for our hobby and has drawn many more collectors into its fold (I know of BoB coin buyers who come from Australia, Europe, the US and Asia). The Internet and the massive increase in coin sales has resulted in a nightmare scenario for printed catalogues - they can never be right - all they can ever be is out of date.

    SECOND: Hern (in my experience) is closed minded and does not listen to advice from others.

    I am not alone when I state that I have freely offered the publisher of Hern's catalogues information that has been flatly rejected. Not only just rejected but scorned upon by him - I know of others who have faced a similar situation when trying to offer assistance to Hern on a variety of subjects including values. For someone who has the priviledge of publishing a reference work most people use one would expect a more open and inviting approach to ensure that the information carried in the books is correct.

    As an example, I know that the suggestion by other numismatists (not me) that he include links to websites in his books for related information on coins has been simply ignored.

    THE ANSWER: The future is clearly a specialised web site on South African coins

    It is lovely to have a printed coin book with mintages and background historical information etc to look at BUT when it comes to realistic and relevant values and a broader base of information one has to look at the Internet and a website that can be updated continuously. This website can include charts covering old and current prices of all coins and grades taken from auctions on a weekly basis (for example see the fascinating chart on the 1930 6d above). It could include updates on technical areas (such as varieties); detailed historical information backgrounding coins; open forums (like this); images - even videos and audios of talks given on subjects AND links to current online auctions where those coins might be being sold. All things that a book CANNOT do!

    Consider how the Internet has affected the way you do your banking (online); buy and sell coins (online); communicate with friends (online); research (online); book your next plane flight (online); plan your next holiday (online) and so I can go on - the infamous word GOOGLE comes to mind. Even printed books are affected - Google is publishing PDFs of old books now out of copyright (online) See: Google Books. Do a search on any subject at this link and see what is there - you will be amazed! I have, like my 2006 and 2007 visits to South Africa, planned my trips using the Internet for my visit later this year.

    I understand the importance of such a specialised website on South African coins is about to be launched and I will certainly be interested in subscribing to it!

    It is the future.

    In conclusion a printed book cataloguing prices is like the old 33rpm record player of the 70s and 80s - useful as an object of interest in your library but, today, having little real relevance. An online website carrying daily updated prices and information will be like enjoying the latest DVD music technology - with all the extras!

    Thinking "outside the box".....

    Kind regards

    Scott Balson
    Last edited by ndoa18; 05-02-11 at 09:16.

  11. #11
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    Default Big money talks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rare NotesCoins View Post
    Why did BOB change their top 10 criteria?
    Regards Morne
    I am not sure what the criteria where in the first place - but it seems (I think) it changed from the number of items sold to the total turnover of the seller on BoB?

    There is a seller (Pary) who now is at 3rd place on the top 10 numismatic sellers on BoB with only 2 sales (but at R175 000 each)

    So if one sells a thousand items at R1 each (just as an example), and another guy sells one item at R1001, he/she will be ranked above first mentioned on the list.

    I think?

    Pierre

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