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  • SAAND Dealers Against us Internet Traders!

    Hi Guys
    I recently called the SA Mint to register as a dealer and was told that at the last SAAND meeting it was decided not to let anyone register as a dealer at the SA Mint. The reason for this is they want to cut out all Internet Traders like myself. This is crazy as I feel that internet trading controls this market. Besides there are also SAAND dealers trading on bid or buyso where is the problem. We should all be entitled to register as dealers.

    Regards

  • #2
    Hi Saiedm

    That sounds like a classic breach of fair trading laws to me. A closed club like you suggest would not be allowed here in Australia.

    The SA Mint should move with the times - most coin trades today are now done through auction sites like BoB.

    Kind regards

    Scott Balson

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi Saiedm

      If you are a registered coin dealer, and by this I mean, have a VAT number a registered business etc... then I do not see why the SA Mint should refuse you a dealership status. You should re-approach them to correct it.


      Cheers
      Anthony G
      The measure of a numismatist is not how much he profits from the hobby,
      but how much the hobby profits from him.

      Comment


      • #4
        Not to sure about that one, but I do know that the Mint will no longer register part time sellers or sellers that work from their car boots.

        They will only register a business as a dealer if that business is a full time dealer with business premises.

        The problem occurred a few years ago when the Mandela coin craze was just picking up speed. Suddenly everyone was a dealer and needed a hundred of this and a hundred of that. Then when the Mandela's were gone, so were all these so-called 'dealers'. They bought no Naturas, Proteas etc. from the Mint, but as soon as a new Mandela came out they appeared again.

        So the Mint basically just wants to make sure that when they register a new dealer that that business is in fact a real dealer and not some fly-by-night setup that just wants to cash in on Mandelas.

        Therefore, it has become very difficult to become a dealer. Since January 2008 only 4 new dealers have been registered, of which 3 were affirmative action registrations.

        So, if you want the Mint to register you as a dealer, you had better make sure that, well...you are a dealer.
        Items I am selling.

        Comment


        • #5
          It is also my understanding that besides being a registered bussiness with VAT nr and so forth you also need to have a previous track record as a buyer of SA Mint products. They will only consider you as a dealer once you've spent a certain average turnover with them in a year as a buyer before they would consider you as a dealer. This make perfect sense as anyone can go register a bussiness and apply for a VAT number just to qualify as a dealer and buy at a small discount.

          Come on guys, in all industries there are various levels of pricing and any supplier or manufacturer to trade and retail markets has the right protect their market and as such entitled to their different pricing structures. You are not denied the product, you will simply be denied a discount which you may or may not be entitled to.

          This is no closed club trading network but simply a manufacturer who has the right to chose his outlets and re-sllers based on a discounted supply.

          and NO I am not a Registered Dealer but has been doing bussiness in other sectors and as a result understand the reasoning of the Mint.
          Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak!

          Click to view any items I may have on auction

          Comment


          • #6
            I have decided to sell off all my modern coins which has no history and I will rather invest that money in proper rare coins. The only coins that have really increased in value from the mint has been the Mandela coins.

            Comment


            • #7
              That is impossible?

              ...and was told that at the last SAAND meeting it was decided not to let anyone register as a dealer at the SA Mint
              So SAAND is calling the shots and not the SA Mint or do I read this wrong?

              If SAAND at their last meeting indeed decided that no new dealers can register at the SA Mint then surely this calls for the biggest legal action in numismatic history in SA.

              Hopefully I misunderstood your post?

              Kind regards

              Pierre

              Comment


              • #8
                HI ALL.

                I SHARE SAIEDS SENTIMENT , I WAS TOLD THAT , I NEED TO HAVE A COIN SHOP/ OUTLET , MY COMPANY DOCUMENTS WERE ALL IN ORDER AND I WAS NOT GIVEN A REASON AS TO WHY I CANNOT BECOME A DEALER,
                I WAS TOLD BY THE MINT THAT I AM WASTING MY TIME BY TRYING TO APPLY
                I BELIEVE THAT WE ARE REGARDED AS "SUITCASE DEALERS" BY THE MINT, AND I THINK ITS AN UNFAIR PRACTICE.

                WHAT A FEELING TO BE REJECTED WITHOUT A VALID REASON IN A COUNTRY THAT WAS RECENTLY BORN INTO FREEDOM.
                AND I THOUGHT THAT THE FREEDOM CHARTER MEANT SOMETHING.

                SEE THIS ARTICLE APPOSING NON SAAND DEALERS
                • Choose a reputable dealer. There has been a mini boom in the number of gold coin traders since the start of the financial crisis. Only deal with members of the South African Association of Numismatic Dealers (Sndaa), says Theba. These dealers have to follow a code and the ethics of the association, and should you have a dispute the SAAND will also mediate between parties. The Rand Refinery, which produced Krugerrands, will only sell its coins to Saand members.



                  SEE ENTIRE ARTICLE

                  How to buy gold coins: Fin24: Personal Finance: Investing


                  WARM REGARDS

                  PROUD SOUTH AFRICAN AND PROUDER "SUITCASE DEALER"
                Last edited by qball; 24-06-10, 11:50. Reason: Use of Caps is not permitted, denotes shouting

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Pierre_Henri View Post


                  So SAAND is calling the shots and not the SA Mint or do I read this wrong?

                  If SAAND at their last meeting indeed decided that no new dealers can register at the SA Mint then surely this calls for the biggest legal action in numismatic history in SA.

                  Hopefully I misunderstood your post?

                  Kind regards

                  Pierre

                  I doubt SAAND is calling the shots. My experience with the Mint is that they do whatever they want to regardless of what anyone thinks, says or does.

                  However, I don't have a problem with the Mint trying to ensure that all of their registered dealers are in fact bona fide dealers, and not flash in the pans that want to make a quick buck off Mandelas.
                  Last edited by PBGold; 23-06-10, 19:28.
                  Items I am selling.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Seems like an Internet society is the only way ...

                    Maybe the only way out for us is an Internet Coin Dealers Society for South Africa? If you scroll down you will see a long descussion regarding a Coin Collectors Society for SA - maybe what we need is a combination of the two?

                    A wake up call for the South African Mint is long overdue.

                    They can support the handfull of SAAND dealers or the overwhelming majority that carries this hobby each and everyday - in times of hardship (as is currently the case) or the good times that we all hope is just around the corner.

                    The SA Mint's selective support to a "chosen few" smacks of the bad old days when only the "Broederbond" got helped.

                    I will be taking a break from this forum for a while, but hope that whatever responses we get will be positive and supportive.

                    Kind regards

                    Pierre

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Pierre_Henri View Post
                      Maybe the only way out for us is an Internet Coin Dealers Society for South Africa? If you scroll down you will see a long descussion regarding a Coin Collectors Society for SA - maybe what we need is a combination of the two?


                      Kind regards

                      Pierre
                      I agree with Pierre.
                      I beleive almighty will not keep all the door closed. Somewhere there is a door open. We just need keep on trying to see that open door.

                      Dulal
                      Last edited by Dulal; 24-06-10, 10:05.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Pierre_Henri View Post

                        A wake up call for the South African Mint is long overdue.

                        They can support the handfull of SAAND dealers or the overwhelming majority that carries this hobby each and everyday - in times of hardship (as is currently the case) or the good times that we all hope is just around the corner.
                        Sorry Pierre, but you have it the wrong way around. The Mint does not support the dealers. The dealers support the Mint.

                        The Mint does not care about hobbies, collecting, investment etc. etc. They are a factory that produces a product. A product they sell in the manner that generates them the most income.

                        Dealers that have been supporting them for years will be allocated more stock. A suitcase dealer that only buys from them when there are Mandelas will get very little stock allocated to them. There is nothing wrong with this. Of course, any business will look after their loyal clients.

                        When the Mint looks at allocating stock to dealers they look at that dealers' track record. Not just at how many Mandelas they bought or wanted to buy. They look at Proteas, Naturas, Silvers etc etc.

                        In the majority of cases a person wants to be a dealer just to buy Mandelas. Unfortunately this element is spoiling it for genuine dealers. This element will go to the Mint and want to register as a dealer claiming that they will spend millions, but they never do. They never buy Naturas, Proteas, Silvers etc. etc. They just want Mandelas.

                        So the Mint has become very strict. I, for one, am glad they are, because the element I was talking about was stuffing up the market.
                        Items I am selling.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by geewhizz
                          This is a bit off topic but when gold virtually tripled in price everyone seemed to get on the band wagon to scrap gold.
                          A new law was passed that in order to scrap gold or silver at a precious metal dealer one had to have a secondhand dealers licence
                          This is quite a process if one does not have a shop.

                          I was sitting with R20,000 worth of scrap when I fortunately found a
                          manufacturing jeweller who was willing to pay me the same price as the scrap metal dealers. So he scores as well since he would pay more from the metal dealer
                          Please stick to the topic at hand

                          Thank you

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Experts Give Us Input !!!!!!!!

                            Originally posted by Vertigo View Post
                            HI ALL.

                            I SHARE SAIEDS SENTIMENT , I WAS TOLD THAT , I NEED TO HAVE A COIN SHOP/ OUTLET , MY COMPANY DOCUMENTS WERE ALL IN ORDER AND I WAS NOT GIVEN A REASON AS TO WHY I CANNOT BECOME A DEALER,
                            I WAS TOLD BY THE MINT THAT I AM WASTING MY TIME BY TRYING TO APPLY
                            I BELIEVE THAT WE ARE REGARDED AS "SUITCASE DEALERS" BY THE MINT, AND I THINK ITS AN UNFAIR PRACTICE.

                            WHAT A FEELING TO BE REJECTED WITHOUT A VALID REASON IN A COUNTRY THAT WAS RECENTLY BORN INTO FREEDOM.
                            AND I THOUGHT THAT THE FREEDOM CHARTER MEANT SOMETHING.

                            SEE THIS ARTICLE APPOSING NON SAAND DEALERS
                            • Choose a reputable dealer. There has been a mini boom in the number of gold coin traders since the start of the financial crisis. Only deal with members of the South African Association of Numismatic Dealers (Sndaa), says Theba. These dealers have to follow a code and the ethics of the association, and should you have a dispute the SAAND will also mediate between parties. The Rand Refinery, which produced Krugerrands, will only sell its coins to Saand members.



                              SEE ENTIRE ARTICLE

                              How to buy gold coins: Fin24: Personal Finance: Investing


                              WARM REGARDS
                            HI ALL,
                            KINDLY ADVISE ON THIS ARTICLE .
                            WHAT IS WRONG WITH INTERNET TRADERS.
                            THE MOST EXPENSIVE UNION COIN GOT SOLD RECENTLY ON BOB ,
                            I HAVE 100% POSITIVE FEEDBACK , AND MY PRICES ARE HALF OF THE SHOPS.

                            Last edited by qball; 30-06-10, 16:29. Reason: Do not post in Caps - it denotes shouting.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              SAAND response part 1

                              Hi All

                              SAAND have asked me to post a response regarding this matter -

                              Gentlemen,

                              It has been decided that we should reply to the comments that have been posted by various parties regarding the situation with “registered dealers” and the so called “part time or suitcase dealers”.

                              Any manufacturer or distributer of any product has its dealer network to which it sells a product for distribution to service a larger market. On occasion, these “dealers” receive preferential treatment and rates because they have inverted money into infrastructure and stock.
                              Example: The man in the street cannot buy a car from the manufacturer, “Ford Motor Company” and then resell it to a prospective client. He is not a dealer and does not qualify. That is why there are dealers. SAAND is an association of “professional numismatic dealers” who make their living through numismatics. There is a constitution that controls the ethics and code of conduct. SAAND members are NOT part time dealers. Most SAAND members actually started out as collectors just like most of the people that have commented on the forum. These “collectors” then traded with other collectors and other dealers. Once their “hobby” became viable enough to support them, they then became professional dealers.

                              To clarify a few misconceptions:

                              The industry at large, which includes the SA Mint, Rand Refinery, and the Precious Metals Regulator, the Jewellery Council of South Africa, The Antique Dealers Association the South African Police Services and SARS, amongst others, must confirm the credibility and “bona fides” of those participating in the market. There is something called “VAT”, the Second-hand Goods Act and the “FICA Act”. Whether we like it not, VAT, SARS and the FICA Act are here to stay. While compiling this reply we actually received further correspondence from the Financial Intelligence Centre. While you are a “collector dealer or suitcase dealer” you might be able to get away with and avoid some or most of these issues, but if you intend dealing professionally, on a full time basis, these are very real issues. The main reason that “collectors” want to be classified as “dealers” is because they want to qualify for the “specials” that registered dealers enjoy. They will try to get as many Nelson Mandela and FIFA coins from the SA Mint as possible. These coins are not for their own collections, but for re-sale, at a profit, to other collectors. It is for this reason that if you want to be accredited as a “dealer”, you must be prepared to complete the necessary application form and comply. This includes a VAT Registration number, a company registration number, a tax clearance, a police clearance and history of your track record as a “collector” and also as a “dealer”.

                              Someone commented on the forum that SAAND is a “closed club”. This is not true. SAAND gladly invites new members, as the more members we have, the stronger the Association is. If you can comply with the requirements, we will be pleased to have you as a member.

                              Another contributor to the forum added, and we quote:

                              “Not too sure about that one, but I do know that the Mint will no longer register part time sellers or sellers that work from their car boots."

                              They will only register a business as a dealer if that business is a full time dealer with business premises.

                              The problem occurred a few years ago when the Mandela coin craze was just picking up speed. Suddenly everyone was a dealer and needed a hundred of this and a hundred of that. Then when the Mandela's were gone, so were all these so-called 'dealers'. They bought no Naturas, Proteas etc. from the Mint, but as soon as a new Mandela came out they appeared again.

                              So the Mint basically just wants to make sure that when they register a new dealer that that business is in fact a real dealer and not some fly-by-night setup that just wants to cash in on “Mandelas.”

                              Although SAAND cannot comment on the behalf of The SA Mint, we do not believe that they will not deny the registration of a “dealer” provided that that person is a dealer.

                              Part 2 to follow...

                              Comment

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