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  • How many times must one be warned?

    Here we go again with the same seller ...

    Graded - THE RAREST GRADED COIN "AU-50" 1994 5R INAUGURATION .GRADED BY SACGS.@@ LOOK @@@ for sale in Athlone (ID:24612009)

    and ...

    Graded - THE RAREST GRADED COIN '' VF-35" 1994 5R INAUGURATION.@@ I SOLD ONE R2261 @@@ for sale in Athlone (ID:24612005)

    How on earth can two different grades of the SAME coin (1994 R5 inauguration) BOTH have the rarest grade if the one is a VF35 and the other one is a AU50?

    How many warnings have this seller received? We have talked about blatand tomfoolery so many times before.

    Pierre
    Last edited by Pierre_Henri; 07-08-10, 18:44. Reason: spelling

  • #2
    Most likely, this claim is being made because there is (presumably) only one coin for this issue in the census in these grades. I have not checked because obviously, neither of these coins should sell for more than face value and I cannot imagine why anyone could care less how many there might be.

    If my assumptionis true, then the statement is literally true even though it it might be intended to mislead.

    What I will say though is that if there is anyone who is actually gullible and dumb ebough to believe the claim, they deserve what they will get.

    Comment


    • #3
      No, not even that ....

      Originally posted by jwither View Post
      Most likely, this claim is being made because there is (presumably) only one coin for this issue in the census in these grades.
      No ...

      NGC, for example, have ten AU50s graded.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Pierre_Henri View Post
        No ...

        NGC, for example, have ten AU50s graded.
        I stand corrected.

        What I now find incredible is that anyone would have bothered to incur the postage costs and grading fees to slab these coins. That is amazing.

        Comment


        • #5
          It was send because the seller knew he would catch a greedy and stupid person and make money from them. We all complain about two coin companies that does pensoners out of their hard earned cash by selling MS 66 Coins for R9500 gran.

          Maybe it is time we tell as many people as possible that we get in conntact with about this blatant theft. That is what is is. They are stealing peoples hard earned cash by feeding their greedy nature. I have started to tell all about the "real Investment " they pay R9500 and told them about bob and who they can and cant trust. Funny thing it took two weeks for the BIG SA JHB dealer to get my number and phone me. He asked me how I can tell people that they are stealling their money. I said because you are.

          BOB If I told you something and you believe me and you tell it to some one else. Then you find out I was lying, wont you feel stupid. Why cant we stop people from believing anything, by using facts and cure the world of stupid idots
          Hell it pi... me off
          People shouldn't wear purple , Barney gets upset.
          VIEW MY ITEMS!

          Comment


          • #6
            Hear hear!!

            It is EXTREMELY important that something be done. I truly believe it is only a matter of time before BoB becomes embroiled in a legal fiasco where a buyer takes legal action for false advertising.
            "Truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

            Comment


            • #7
              Do you think that a false advertising claim would be BoB's responsibility? I think it would be more the user's responsibility and that he/she could be sued? If there is false advertising in the newspaper then the newspaper doesn't get sued but the advertiser does.
              Yesterday I was clever and wanted to change the world.
              Today I am wise and am changing myself.

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi Lily, Ms Plod

                I think BoB would be safe if their terms and conditions of use are watertight. The problem come with public perception if the media have a go at this service. I think BoB, like eBay and so many other auction houses, only provide a vehicle for trade while obviating themselves from any liability. It is what most online auction sites do.

                The issue is perception - is BoB protecting innocent buyers who are being misled.. that is where forums like this CAN become dynamite if members discuss misleading listings without anything being done to warn innocent buyers.

                I am personally really disappointed that none of the leading collectors on BoB have become involved in a solution that has been flagged by me under another thread here. Either they like the idea of a sticky with some guidelines linked from the coin home page or they don't. In the interests of our hobby I would have hoped they would have come up with other suggestions rather than just highlighting more misleading listings.

                In my view we should teach new collectors "how to fish" rather than highlighting the odd bad egg.

                Kind regards

                Scott Balson

                Comment


                • #9
                  Scott,

                  I agree with the general sentiments of your position for the most part. I do not know what the laws are in South Africa and frankly, even in the United States where I live, their application by the courts in civil litigation is unpredictable because juries are either swayed by ridiculous emotional sentiments. Or, both juries and judges choose to use the court system to implement policy which in my opinion they have absolutely no business doing.

                  To my knowledge, eBay has not been held liable in the United States. If they ever are found to be in the future, it would probably be because they would be found to have known about a fraudulent or misleading practice and did not do anything about it anyway. To me, its a fine line but its still my opinion that they (or BoB) should not be liable in the example used here because any buyer who has any common sense whatsoever can avoid 99% of the frauds (e.g., Chinese fakes) or misleading claims (ridiculous assertions about scarcity and value for an absurdly overpriced coin) with even a minimal amount of numismatic knowledge.

                  In the example used here, it would literally take five or maybe 10 minutes to find out what this coin sells for simply by checking prior sales results, the Hern Guide or contacting a few dealers. I still say that anyone who cannot even be bothered to do that deserves whatever they get.

                  The primary reason I can see that not being done is probably because many or even most of the buyers of this type of coin are NOT collectors at all and have no interest in collecting whatsoever. They are speculators who are trying to make quick money who cannot be bothered to make the effort to learn anything about numismatics generally or the items they are buying specifically.

                  Its the same ignorant approach people use when making "investments" in other areas and in these other areas, the outlay is far greater. In the past in the United States, there have been anecdotal reports supposedly from surveys that Americans typically spend more time researching the purchase of a household appliance (like a television or toaster oven) than they do their stock investments. Is it any wonder that with this kind of laziness people's financial results are so poor?

                  What I can positively assert to everyone here is the following. If eBay or BOB are ever held liable for the claims of sellers in a circumstance like this one, one of two things will happen. Either fees will increase for sellers or certain listings will be banned outright. These sites are not social service organizations. The revenue which is generated from selling fees is almost certainly not enough to make it worthwhile to continue allowing them for sale if they ever have to pay a large civil judgment.
                  Last edited by jwither; 08-08-10, 17:01.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I will do it ....

                    Originally posted by ndoa18 View Post
                    I am personally really disappointed that none of the leading collectors on BoB have become involved in a solution that has been flagged by me under another thread here. Scott Balson
                    OK, I will take the flag and post the selling figures (realized prices per coin per date per grade) of all the Union and ZAR graded coins (NGC and PCGS) sold over the past 6 months or so on BoB. I do not have any figures for Republican coins but hopefully other forum members have that.

                    If BoB will give me a place/venue to list/post my humble catalogue I will do so for free.

                    Pierre

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hi Pierre

                      That is a great gesture and important for the ongoing integrity of our hobby.

                      In need I would be happy to post it on the tokencoins website - which could then be linked back to BoB if they agree.

                      Well done.

                      Kind regards

                      Scott Balson

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        ZAR Penny Catalogue ....

                        These are some sale prices on BOB over the last 6 months or so of ZAR Pennies ...


                        1892


                        XF45 = R540.00 // XF45BN = R950.00 // XF45 BN = R700.00 // AU50BN = R1000 // AU55 BN = R1,895.00 // AU55BN = R1,100.00 // AU55 = R1,800.00 // AU55 BN = R1,312.00 // AU 55 BN = R1,995.00 // AU58 = 1,550.00 // AU58 = R2,055.00 // AU58 BN = R1,650.00 //, // AU58 BN = R1,900.00 // AU58BN = R2000 // AU58 BN = R2,000.00 // AU 58 BN = R1,595.00 // AU 58 BN = R2,499.00 // MS62BN = R4,267.00 // MS 62 BN = R4,233.00 // MS62 = R5,000.00 // MS 62 BN = R5,009.00 // MS62BN = R5,700.00 // MS 63 BN = R5,052.00MS63BN = R5,500.00 // MS63 = R5,250.00 // MS64BN = R8,500.00


                        1893


                        XF40 = R2,600.00 // XF45 = R3,950.00 // XF 45 BN = R3,220.00 // AU-55 = R5,525.00 // AU 55 BN = R5,905.00 // AU 55 BN = R5,480.00 // AU 58 BN = R6,900.01 // MS 61 BN = R13,000.00 // MS63 = R24,000.00


                        1894


                        VF35 BN = R495.00 // XF40BN = R1,000.00 // AU50BN = R1,687.00 // AU50BN = R1,550.00 // AU50BN = R825.00 // AU50BN = R2,250.00 // AU 53 BN = R995.00 // AU55 = R1,050.01// AU 55 BN = R1,615.00 AU-55 BN = R1,660.00 // AU 58 = R1,885.00 // AU 58 BN = R3,095.00 // AU58 = R1,700.00 // AU-58 = R1,775.00 // AU 58 BN = R1,640.01 // AU58 BN = R2,090.00 // AU58 = R1,217.00 // MS60 = R3,100.00 // MS63BN = R9,600.00 // MSBN 63 = R7,900.00


                        1898


                        VF35BN = R252.00 // XF45BN = R380.00 // AU50BN = R280.00 // AU 55 BN = R580.00 // AU 58 BN = R545.01 // AU 58 BN = R765.00 // AU 58 BN = R550.00 // AU 58 BN = R525.00 // AU 58 BN = R545.00 // AU 58 BN = R636.00 // AU58 BN = R745.00 // MS 62 BN = // R1,491.00 // MS 62 BN = R1,300.00 // MS-62 = R1,020.00 // MS62 BN = R1,388.00 // MS 62 BN = R1,343.00 // MS 63 RB = R1,416.00 // MS 63 BN = R1,745.00 // MS 63 BN = R1,272.00 // MS63RB = R2,050.00 // MS 63 RB = R1,275.00 // MS 63 BN = R2,195.00 // MS 63 BN = R1,874.00 // MS 63 BN = R1,895.00 // MS63BN = R1,700.00 // MS63BN = R1,151.00 // MS63 RB = R1,433.00 // MS64BN = R3,100.00 // MS64RB = R2,500.00 // MS64RB = R2,800.00 // MS64BN = R3,350.00 // MS64BN = R3,500.00 // MS64 RB = R2,930.00 // MS 64 BN = R3,500.00 // MS65 RB = R3,925.00 // MS 65 RB = R5,467.00


                        1900 Blank


                        NGC slabbed = R6,200.00 //NGC Kaalpenny with Rim = R8,005.00 // 1900 Kaalpenny Graded by NGC = R5,800.50 // Blank 1900 ZAR Penny - NGC Graded = R7,500.00 // 1900 ZAR KAALPENNY WITH RIM NGC SLABBED = R7433

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi All,
                          Interesting debate on coin grading, I am also a collector of coins, by no means an expert, and have made bad buys in the past, I think that if there is any kind of reference that one could access to see what the grading value should be, it could help. As well as the ZAR pennies, another current controversial coin is 90th R5 birthday coin. The coins are graded from MS60 to MS70, presumably MS70 being the most Valuable, however due to the low population censis of the inferior grades, these are selling for inconcievable amounts. What stops anyone from purposely damaging a coin in order to have it graded in these lower more higher priced categories?
                          I suppose the true value of a coin or anything collectable really is determined by how much someone wants something and what they are prepared to pay for it.
                          I suppose sellers would use this 'weakness' to exploit buyers buy using tricky advertising emphasising the rarity of something which has no real bearing on reality.
                          Coin dealers tend to stay away from these lower graded coins saying "Why buy a poor quality item, especially when they will eventually devalue as more become available, good coins are always going to be scarce"
                          Ambient Music is the Wallpaper of my Mind

                          Click Here to View My Items For Sale

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hi All

                            I have spoken to the seller regarding this issue. It is called "puffery". We have asked the seller not to describe coins in this manner. Once the new CP Act comes into being, this will have far reaching consequences for many sellers and yes, we will have yet another thing to police. If there are other sellers doing this please report this to communitywatch and we will investigate and take action. Unfortunately this seems to only affect collectible type items mainly.

                            Many sellers will argue that the item is rare in terms of the grade that it has been given.

                            Kind regards
                            Cuan

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by kyle2 View Post
                              Hi All,
                              Interesting debate on coin grading, I am also a collector of coins, by no means an expert, and have made bad buys in the past, I think that if there is any kind of reference that one could access to see what the grading value should be, it could help. As well as the ZAR pennies, another current controversial coin is 90th R5 birthday coin. The coins are graded from MS60 to MS70, presumably MS70 being the most Valuable, however due to the low population censis of the inferior grades, these are selling for inconcievable amounts. What stops anyone from purposely damaging a coin in order to have it graded in these lower more higher priced categories?
                              I suppose the true value of a coin or anything collectable really is determined by how much someone wants something and what they are prepared to pay for it.
                              I suppose sellers would use this 'weakness' to exploit buyers buy using tricky advertising emphasising the rarity of something which has no real bearing on reality.
                              Coin dealers tend to stay away from these lower graded coins saying "Why buy a poor quality item, especially when they will eventually devalue as more become available, good coins are always going to be scarce"
                              Anyone who buys any lower graded coins in the manner you describe is not using their common sense. There is not one single example in numismatics anywhere that I know of where a lower graded coin is worth more than a higher graded specimen, no matter how "rare" it is. (Well, maybe one where some US collectors pay premiums for coins graded POOR-1, but that is it.) This is a perfect example of novice buyers not doing their homework before they part with their money.

                              There is a reason why the census population for COMMON coins are lower for lower graded specimens. Its because the coins are worth less than higher graded specimens and there is no point in buying a low grade example when a mint state, better mint state or even AU coin can be bought for a modest amount or only slightly more. Or the demand is weak and its pointless to spend a disproportinate amount of the value on the grading fee. This is frequently true even of coins that are not that common or even scarce such as some Union or ZAR which is why there are few issues with even moderately large circulated census populations.

                              The only time anyone will see a large number of low grade coins in the census is when the coin is valuable in any grade or at least mid-circulated grades. Two examples of this are the 1901-S US Barber quarter dollar and 1916-D "Mercury" dime. Both of those coins have disproportionate large census numbers in AG-3. For ZAR, it explains why most of the 1893 1/, 2/ and 2/6 are below AU while those for a coin such as the 1897 1/ are not.
                              Last edited by jwither; 11-08-10, 16:38.

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